Weasel engine too tight?

[OZM29C]

@Darryl You might have to replace the ignition distributor drive shaft oil seal, part number SD905152, that is located within the cylinder block.

Unfortunately I don't have the modern CR part number. 

Having said that, this may help.

The dimensions of the said seal are as follows;

OD 1.064" - 1.068"

Shaft Dia 0.4895" - 0.4905"

Width 3/8"

Manufacturer - Chicargo Rawhide

 

[Jesse Browning]

I put a piece of masking tape over the #1 spark plug hole. When it ‘pops” off you are close enough to start looking for the timing mark, or like Patrick says, run it.

[Darryl]

Hi all,

Thanks for all the responses.  I had another play around with the Weasel today.  Just to be sure of things I checked the spark on all cylinders and I have a good healthy spark on all 6 plugs.

Using Patrick’s method I found what I believed to be TDC (or thereabouts) on cylinder 1.  I couldn’t find a mark anywhere on the flywheel to show that I was at TDC. I figured I'd run with that anyway and set up the plug firing order accordingly with cylinder 1 firing at that point. 

I tried starting the engine again but had no success. I wasn't convinced I had TDC  right first time so I went through the exercise again. The rotor was in the same location so I figured it must be right but after trying again the engine didn’t give me any hints it would start despite me rotating the distributor. 

I thought I would keep trying to find the timing marks on the flywheel. No matter how I spun the engine though, I couldn’t find anything.  Then as a bit of a fluke I saw something on the flywheel which looked like an old paint line.  As you know the flywheel lines are really hard to see when the engine is in the hull but I could make out a stamped line on the flywheel with an old paint line over it.  There were no numbers stamped around it though.  Is there a 180 degree line stamped on the flywheel? Anyway, I ran with that line hoping that it was the TDC mark and set up the plug order accordingly.  I had no luck though and still only got spluttering and coughing and some smoke.

In the end, I decided to just experiment with the plug order relevant to cylinder 1, figuring that eventually I would find the plug order that the engine would want to run at. My plug leads had been labelled 1-2-3-4-5-6 by the previous owner.  The way I had set it up using Patrick's 'TDC  thumb method' had the labelled plug leads positioned in the correct firing order on the cylinders as 6-3-5-1-4-2. That is, the lead labelled 6 was on cylinder 1.  The lead labelled 3 was on cylinder 4, the lead labelled 5 was on cylinder 2, and so on. Hope this makes sense to you.

I moved the labelled plugs leads around with respect to cylinder 1, starting with 4-2-6-3-5-1, then 2-6-3-5-1-4, etc, etc, with no success. Interestingly, when the firing order was wrong the engine showed that really laboured effect that I had the very first time I tried to start the engine so I think the timing was wrong in the first place.

I eventually got to 5-1-4-2-6-3.  That is, the lead labelled 5 was running on cylinder 1, the lead labelled 1 was on cylinder 4, etc, etc. Essentially I was moving the leads along one cylinder at a time.

Anyway, this was the best setup and I immediately got a different sound to the engine when it was spun. I guess this is one way to time the engine.

I nearly had the engine running with this  plug order and moving the distributor slightly as I spun the engine gave a noticeable change in the way the engine wanted to fire up so I knew I was onto the right order.  I reckon for a few seconds I had it almost running on two cylinders.  I couldn’t keep it going though.

I noticed the carburettor was flooding as were the cylinders (fuel wanting to come upwards out of the spark plug holes).  Fuel was seeping out of different areas on the carburettor.  I wonder about that electric fuel pump and whether it is delivering fuel at a higher rate than what this engine needs.  I’m not sure whether the flooding would sort itself out with the engine running properly or not.

In the meantime though, I noticed that the oil leak had got worse.  There was now at least  a litre (2 x pints?) of oil in the plastic container I had put in the bottom of the hull from the leak in the oil pan.   Aside from the leak, there was debris in the oil that is concerning.  I see there is silicon,  fragments of brass, and metallic pieces including what could be a stripped thread?  Where would brass be in this block?

Anyway, based on what I was seeing  I decided to call it quits at that stage and not go any further with trying to start it.  My next step is to pull the motor out.   I am not sure when I can get do that  as I am getting two vehicles ready for a big display here at the end of the month.  I also have an M20 to finish so it could be some time.  It may be that I just get the engine out when I get a few spare hours and put it on a stand and get onto it when I get spare time.

As an aside I’m fairly certain the noise at the front is the fan blades hitting the very top inside of the fan shroud.

Thanks all for the assistance and I’ll keep you posted as I get time to work on the engine.

 

Edited March 9 by Darryl

[Jesse Browning]

Is not the firing order 153624?

[Darryl]

Hi Jesse.  I had recorded it as 1-4-2-6-3-5 but I can't recall now where I got that now.  I had better go back and check the manual.

What are your thoughts on the brass/bronze in the oil?  I'm guessing it is from a bronze bush somewhere.  Any thoughts on where?

 

[Darryl]

Hi again Jesse.

Crikey, you are right.  It should be 1-5-3-6-2-4.   What an amateur mistake.....  That changes things completely.

Okay, what are your thoughts on continuing to try to start this thing?  I'm a bit concerned that there is other stuff going on in the engine with all that debris in the oil.  However, I guess if I were able to get it to run, that might help pinpoint any problem areas.  I would need to top the oil up for starters.

Your thoughts? 

 

 

 

[Patrick Tipton]

Sounds like progress!  We already talked about how easy it is to get the firing order goofed...so sounds like you fix that and this engine runs.

I don't like that brass/bronze either....the only bronze bushing I can think of is in the distributor drive and the starter (at the end of the bendix, but that should not be getting into the oil).  Is that oil dripping directly into your bucket from the engine or is possibly being contaminated by junk in the hull on its way to your bucket?

I too would be tempted to get it running to see what you are getting for oil pressure and learn whatever else you can.  The biggest risk appears to me to be that something was put together incorrectly and that bronze/brass is bearing related and if a bearing spun, you can damage your crank.  If there is a bearing problem, it seems likely that the crank might already be suffering though so...maybe worth the risk.

Your fuel pump may be providing too much gas, but if the float is working correctly in the carburetor, it should not matter.  I would do a quick and dirty disassemble on the carb and make sure the float doesn't have a hole in it/is set up correctly. 

Sounds like they really goofed up the oil pan sealing....so the engine will have to come out, but it sure would be nice to have it running so that all you are worried about is getting things cleaned and sealed.

Keep up the good work - you are almost there!

 

[Darryl]

Hi Patrick

Thanks for the words of encouragement.  A few hours of my life mucking around that I won't get back, which is frustrating! I still can't recall where I saw that firing order but I do recall noting it down and then checking the order the previous owner had the plug leads labelled and thought the order was correct. A game changer, as they say.

Yes, I couldn't think where bronze would be used where it would end up in the oil.  I don't think that it could be coming from  anywhere in the hull as I vacuumed the hull  out once I got access to everything.  I have the oil catching tray sitting under the bell housing 'lip' where it meets the face of the back of the block, so it should be catching oil directly under the connection between the bell housing and block.  That's where I can feel oil seeping out.  It looks like engine oil to me, rather than transmission  oil but in saying that, I can see that there is oil on the teeth of the flywheel so clearly that is sitting in oil as well. I'm assuming it is coming from the block at this stage and it is a bit hard to say at the moment.

I'll have another play with the engine later today and let you know how I get on.

[Patrick Tipton]

Could be the pilot bushing too.....

As for the time....I keep telling myself I am gaining experience 😂

The other thing about these Weasel engines...they have a labyrinth rear main seal....which is a crazy design that baffles the imagination in my opinion.  I don't totally understand why oil doesn't leak out when the engine is sitting....but once the engine is running the oil should stay away from the rear of the engine.  Your PO may have siliconed up the area where the labyrinth runs....which would get chewed up pretty immediately....and might have something to do with all this oil.

 

[Jesse Browning]

When at rest, the oil level is below the laberynth seal. If you over fill the oil, it will run out there. As for the dibris, maybe it’s coming from inside the bell housing. The clutch makes a lot of dust and junk. If your going to pull the engine, I would wait until further inspection before trying to start it. 

Edited March 10 by Jesse Browning

[Patrick Tipton]

12 hours ago, Jesse Browning said:

When at rest, the oil level is below the laberynth seal.

Thanks Jesse - that makes sense!

[Darryl]

Hi all,

Apologies for the delay in providing an update.

I only had a very short amount of time on Sunday to have another look at the Weasel.  I must admit I was darned curious as to whether the thing would run so I couldn’t resist at least having a go.  Sorry Jesse – I had a play with it before I saw your thoughts on whether to continue or not.

Unfortunately I had already returned my good battery to the Scout Car as I needed to get that vehicle ready for transport to a show on Monday.

Anyway, I topped up the oil in the pan.  I guess it would have taken at least a 1- 1 1/2  litres of oil to get the dipstick to the full mark.   It was at the right level when I first started playing with this engine.  Patrick - I didn’t have the time to check the carburettor so I thought I would try it as it was.

I used the Tipton thumb TDC method again to find TDC and this time put the plug leads in the right firing order: 1-5-3-6-2-4!

Cranking the engine didn’t do too much until I fully advanced the distributor and then the engine started to fire.  I guess I didn’t quite have the TDC right.  I found I couldn’t get the engine to keep running though on more than a couple of cylinders without holding on the starter switch.  The battery I was using was the same one I used at the start. It just wasn’t as good in terms of cranking power and the speed that the engine was running as the battery out of the scout car and I felt this didn't help.

The flooding I had previously seen at the carburettor wasn’t immediately obvious but I could see that cylinder 4 was flooding. 

In the end, I decided to stop at that point.  As I say, there are enough other issues with the  engine that it has to come out so I figure I will make sure I have it running properly before it goes back in the vehicle.  Besides,  that noise at the front where the fan blade was rubbing on the fan shroud was bugging the hell out of me as well and I want to get that and other problems sorted.

Thanks all for the assistance to date.  I am on the search for a full gasket set and the seals  for the pan and I will let you know as soon as I have the engine out and have assessed its condition.

 

Thanks

Darryl 

[Jesse Browning]

When you get it out, make sure the marks on the timing gears are lined up.