1943 T-24 Restoration Thread

[Patrick Tipton]

Appreciate it John @OZM29C!  As you know so well and demonstrate time and time again, one little step at a time,  done well.

[Patrick Tipton]

One more session on the floor.  It is coming together pretty well.  I have about another session and I should be able to hide this repair.  It will still need a little glazing compound to hide the deep pits, but once painted, I think it should look the part.

[F-D Zernia]

I’m a little behind on watching the videos and didn’t realize you were out of the loop for a while. Glad to hear your feeling better and will be back in the shop soon. Hope the family does well too. 
You have provided very much advice on methods it really helps. The mending of your floor panels is a good task for all to see.     Just to pass on I know for myself there were days in the dead of winter I worked on a project because you did something similar and got me past the questions I had.     Thanks

Fred

[42rocker]

Everyone has done an outstanding job of the sharing of information in this topic.

Patrick, you have been doing an outstanding re-build. Thanks for sharing everything. 

Can't wait to see the end if your project.

Stay Safe Everyone.

Later 42rocker

 

 

[Patrick Tipton]

Gents:

I am feeling great, my shop is about as clean as it gets, all of the "honey-do's" about caught up with....back on the Weasel this weekend.  I can't wait!

I have two immediate projects:  finish the repairs to the last couple of interior body panels and get them in primer and touch up the paint on a few areas on the hull that were blocked by the rotisserie.  I have made a grid using original pictures for the black camo and will start cutting out shapes and taping them to the hull in preparation for applying the actual paint. 

Onward!

[Patrick Tipton]

I have been playing with other toys and doing just a little work on the T24.  With the June MVPA convention looming, time to get back to work.  I will be making a lot more posts again.

Based on what I have seen (and nothing else) so this is speculation, I believe the T24's had matching engine numbers to their ordnance numbers or at least they were very close.  This engine is a lot later than my hull number 127 but it was cast in 1943 and has a relatively early number at 689.  Good enough!  By the way, the casting numbers in the last picture mean W (1943) and Sept 20 (9 20).

I dropped the crank and block off at the machine shop to have the crank turned and the block cleaned and inspected.  The engine had a spun bearing so the crank definitely needed grinding.  We shall see what the block needs - it may not need much.

[OZM29C]

@Patrick Tipton It must be a relief to finally get back to your T24 restoration. Can I offer a suggestion? If you are going to all that trouble to have your engine block and crankshaft machined, it would certainly be worth the extra expense to have hardened valve seats fitted into the cylinder block. I know this suggestion may seem an overkill but do it once and do it right. Cheers

[Patrick Tipton]

1 hour ago, OZM29C said:

I know this suggestion may seem an overkill but do it once and do it right. Cheers

 

 

Funny that you should mention hardened valve seats.  For some reason, my machinist doesn't believe in them for most applications.  It might be that he is so busy that he doesn't want the extra work! 🤣

I am going to see him tomorrow to chat about the engine and I will bring it up again.  There are quite a few interesting SAE publications about unleaded and valve seats including, if I remember correctly, a big study that was done in Oz.  If I remember correctly, there was accelerated wear, although maybe not as bad as originally contemplated...I need to find that article and reread it.

As always, appreciate it John!

[OZM29C]

1 hour ago, Patrick Tipton said:

Funny that you should mention hardened valve seats.  For some reason, my machinist doesn't believe in them for most applications.  It might be that he is so busy that he doesn't want the extra work! 🤣

I am going to see him tomorrow to chat about the engine and I will bring it up again.  There are quite a few interesting SAE publications about unleaded and valve seats including, if I remember correctly, a big study that was done in Oz.  If I remember correctly, there was accelerated wear, although maybe not as bad as originally contemplated...I need to find that article and reread it.

As always, appreciate it John!

@Patrick Tipton I had no choice but to fit replacement hardened valve seats as the original valve seats were both badly recessed and were severely pitted/corroded from exposure to the elements. I guess that being able to use unleaded fuel is an added advantage but not the real reason why the hardened valve seats were fitted. If you look carefully at the photo you can see the corrosion that I was talking about.

[Patrick Tipton]

@OZM29C Yes - I can see the pitting and it looks like someone had been in there before so I understand that you had no choice.

Some of the valve seats on my engine are a little pitted - #6 is the worst, but I think they will likely clean up and be within tolerance so unless I am worried about the unleaded gas related erosion, I think I can build a factory spec'd engine without installing the seats....but I will report back after the machinist has inspected and developed his professional opinion.

Cheers!

[M29C3284]

When I had my engine rebuilt the rebuild shop that did the machining told me I did not have to install hardened valve seat unless it was necessary. Due to the low compression ratio of these engines and the little use they will see, the wear on the valve seats caused by the unleaded fuel would be negligible.

[Patrick Tipton]

Greetings Alexander @M29C3284.  That is my machine shop's general point of view - that we aren't running the engines hard enough to have it really matter. 

I do know that the study I mentioned above showed that there was accelerated wear in tractor engines....lot of hours but similar compression ratios etc....but it was not terrible if I am remembering correctly...something like the engine would get 70% of its expected life.  Of course that would not be good if you are farming and driving the tractor every day but probably fine for a hobby vehicle that will get maybe a few thousand miles in a few decades if it is used a lot!

I still would feel better with hardened seats though....

[OZM29C]

2 hours ago, Patrick Tipton said:

 probably fine for a hobby vehicle that will get maybe a few thousand miles in a few decades if it is used a lot!

I still would feel better with hardened seats though....

@Patrick Tipton Patrick, your reply above brought a smile to my face. With my weasel engine I asked very good friends of mine, who own and operate an Automotive engineering shop, to inspect my engine and rebuild it accordingly. The end product was an engineering marvel😀 NOS Crankshaft, NOS crank timing gear, NOS Crank pulley, Aluminium camshaft timing gear, flywheel ground, New ring gear, new pistons, rings and bearings, conrod resized, new valves and valve springs, New camshaft bearings, NOS Clutch disc and pressure plate, NOS oil pimp, engine block re sleeved, hardened valve seats fitted, engine block and cylinder head crack tested, and cleaned, Spark plug thread inserts fitted into cylinder head, new core plugs and last but not least the engine was fully balanced. Of note, I took their advice and let them assemble the engine as the engine assembly cost was insignificant when compared to the machining and parts costs. That way they could check that all clearances etc were within spec plus as an added bonus the engine came with a warranty. Now getting back to what you said, was this an overkill, most definitely and will I ever get value for money out of the engine, probably not but crikey it goes well. 😀

[Patrick Tipton]

Love it John!  @OZM29C That is a thing of beauty.  I am not going that far....I don't think - but I am still waiting for a return call from the machine shop.  I have a clean(ish) shop, the final drive needing reassembly, transmission parts to clean....etc.  Time to finish this T24!

[Patrick Tipton]

I am a bit behind here!  I can't believe I haven't posted on this thread since March!!!

The machine shop finally called yesterday and my engine work is finished.  This engine was rebuilt by the Norwegians - 60 over pistons and standard otherwise.  It had original babbited rod bearings. 

The cylinders cleaned up within spec.  One cylinder has a little mark on it from sitting, but the machinist felt like it wasn't enough of an issue to sleeve it.  The block got new valve guides and we recut all of the seats.  I have NOS valves so the top end should be beautiful when reassembled. 

One of the rod bearings had failed (can't really "spin" a babbit!) and it did some damage to the crank.  Both the mains and the rods cleaned up to .20 undersized.  I have a call into one of the Studebaker engine parts suppliers and I may end up with NOS babbit connecting rods.  I am kinda on the fence about reinstalling the early connecting rods (in lieu of the later shell style) but that is just lack of experience with babbit style connecting rods.  Babbit technology worked just fine....but different than what I am used to doing.  One plus is originality, although no one but me (and you guys) will ever know.

I am on the fence about replacing the fiber timing gear with the aluminum style.  I know it makes sense but the purist in me grumbles a little.  The only "down" side to the aluminum is supposedly noise, but I am pretty sure no Weasel driver ever heard the difference!  

So, I need to get the remaining parts ordered this week and I have a couple of projects to finish this month (plus a show) and then it will be full tilt on the T24 until it is running and driving!

Cheers.

 

[OZM29C]

11 hours ago, Patrick Tipton said:

I am a bit behind here!  I can't believe I haven't posted on this thread since March!!!

The machine shop finally called yesterday and my engine work is finished.  This engine was rebuilt by the Norwegians - 60 over pistons and standard otherwise.  It had original babbited rod bearings. 

The cylinders cleaned up within spec.  One cylinder has a little mark on it from sitting, but the machinist felt like it wasn't enough of an issue to sleeve it.  The block got new valve guides and we recut all of the seats.  I have NOS valves so the top end should be beautiful when reassembled. 

One of the rod bearings had failed (can't really "spin" a babbit!) and it did some damage to the crank.  Both the mains and the rods cleaned up to .20 undersized.  I have a call into one of the Studebaker engine parts suppliers and I may end up with NOS babbit connecting rods.  I am kinda on the fence about reinstalling the early connecting rods (in lieu of the later shell style) but that is just lack of experience with babbit style connecting rods.  Babbit technology worked just fine....but different than what I am used to doing.  One plus is originality, although no one but me (and you guys) will ever know.

I am on the fence about replacing the fiber timing gear with the aluminum style.  I know it makes sense but the purist in me grumbles a little.  The only "down" side to the aluminum is supposedly noise, but I am pretty sure no Weasel driver ever heard the difference!  

 

11 hours ago, Patrick Tipton said:

So, I need to get the remaining parts ordered this week and I have a couple of projects to finish this month (plus a show) and then it will be full tilt on the T24 until it is running and driving!

Cheers.

 

@Patrick Tipton Good to hear from you Patrick. I thought that you had been lost in the world of Jeeps 🙂 I do believe that replacing the fibre timing gear with an Aluminium gear is a no brainer. I can draw on @Byron Byron Kay's recent experience of having a fibre timing gear disintegrate after only 70 miles of driving post engine rebuild. As you quite rightly pointed out, there is no way you could honestly distinguish the difference between the two types of gears when driving a weasel. Could I suggest that you ask the engine rebuilder to do a full balance on your engine. It was recommended by my engine rebuilder and I can assure you that my engine runs sweet. Personal choice though but IMHO its worth the extra $$$$$$. Look forward to seeing your T24 come to life. Cheers.

 

[Patrick Tipton]

14 hours ago, OZM29C said:

 

@Patrick Tipton Good to hear from you Patrick. I thought that you had been lost in the world of Jeeps 🙂

Ha!  I do have a good excuse - got stuck editing the new GPW Restoration Standards and got all excited about the G503.....🤣

As for the fiber/aluminum timing gear, I have heard mixed reviews from the suppliers here in the states.  One told me that there was a possibility that the gears were incorrectly cut and they have heard of failures.  It gives me pause because while the fiber failure is a PITA, it is not catastrophic.  The aluminum failure - very destructive.  So.....still sitting on the fence.....but leaning towards original fiber knowing that I might have to go back in.  Where did you source the aluminum gear?

I do plan to run this engine several hours on the test stand before installation - usually these types of problems show up quickly so I will keep my fingers crossed if that is the route I end up choosing.

Interesting about the full balance.  That type of engine work has gotten so expensive here in the States (and my machine shop is so slow) that I am not going to do it.  I am sure it would make for a nicer running engine, although the motor is very smooth running period.  My M29 motor starts and runs beautifully.  I am going to save those pennies for the wildly expensive track repairs that I face.

Thanks for the support John!

Cheers, Patrick

 

[F-D Zernia]

Patrick, it’s good to hear the machine shop work is moving forward. I have experienced the same pace in my neck of the woods. The biggest delay is the process to re babbit the rod bearings. Very few businesses can or will do it. I did purchase replacement connecting rods, that require shell bearings  and gave the builder the option, his call. 
    The aluminum cam gear has been purchased as I requested. To me this seems a good choice. The gear I have is from a Studebaker supplier so I expect they have a good history of success. Everything is taking extremely long for anything under the engine cover. 
Good luck

Fred

[Patrick Tipton]

3 hours ago, F-D Zernia said:

 I did purchase replacement connecting rods, that require shell bearings  and gave the builder the option, his call. 
    The aluminum cam gear has been purchased as I requested.

Thanks Fred - excited to be working on it too.  I thought I had a line on NOS babbited connecting rods....20 over, but no joy.  I ordered the replacements like you and new .20 over inserts so that is what I will be installing.    As for the gear, one of the big suppliers recommended against it - who knows!  I am still on the fence.

I was supposed to pick the engine up today but got tied up.  Pics next week when I pick it up!!  I am excited to start building it.

Cheers

Patrick 

[OZM29C]

On 9/9/2022 at 11:31 PM, Patrick Tipton said:

Ha!  I do have a good excuse - got stuck editing the new GPW Restoration Standards and got all excited about the G503.....🤣

As for the fiber/aluminum timing gear, I have heard mixed reviews from the suppliers here in the states.  One told me that there was a possibility that the gears were incorrectly cut and they have heard of failures.  It gives me pause because while the fiber failure is a PITA, it is not catastrophic.  The aluminum failure - very destructive.  So.....still sitting on the fence.....but leaning towards original fiber knowing that I might have to go back in.  Where did you source the aluminum gear?

I do plan to run this engine several hours on the test stand before installation - usually these types of problems show up quickly so I will keep my fingers crossed if that is the route I end up choosing.

Interesting about the full balance.  That type of engine work has gotten so expensive here in the States (and my machine shop is so slow) that I am not going to do it.  I am sure it would make for a nicer running engine, although the motor is very smooth running period.  My M29 motor starts and runs beautifully.  I am going to save those pennies for the wildly expensive track repairs that I face.

Thanks for the support John!

Cheers, Patrick

 

@Patrick TiptonPatrick, I purchased the Aluminium timing gear from a local Studebaker Parts vendor here in Oz. He did say that all of the parts for my engine rebuild were sourced from the US of A but he did not elaborate about where his suppliers were located. All I can say is, so far so good with my Aluminium timing gear. I am not advocating that you should balance your engine, I was just passing on the advice given to me by my engine rebuilder. As he is a very good friend of mine, I am in no doubt that he did not make this recommendation to simply extract more money from me. Having said that, the only parts not replaced in my engine were the camshaft and flywheel (less ring gear). All other parts like the crankshaft, ring gear, pistons, rods, clutch, crank pulley etc were either new or NOS. I guess that in this case, it was the right call for my engine. One thing I have learned is that I needed a 'Strong' engine to power my floater. I look forward to more instalments on your Weasel restoration.

 

[aktrapperbrad]

I'm looking forward to hearing how it turns out. One of the first things I'll need to do is pull the engine on the M29C, after I get it home, and check it out. Who knows what shape it is in after sitting 60 years  

[Patrick Tipton]

Thanks @aktrapperbrad  I am actually going Monday to pick up the block and crank and install the cam bearings with the machinist - my cam bearing installer is a little junky so we will do it together.  I should be reassembling in the next two weeks.....I purchased all of the parts but the cam gear...still researching.....

 

[Patrick Tipton]

After spending the last year and a half on a 1943 Willys MB, I am back on the T24.  Excited!

The engine is back from the machine shop, all of the parts have been received so we just need to reassemble it.  That project should start next week.

In the meantime, I needed to put new brake pads on the final drive bands.  Not a bad project.  I ended up with a little aircraft "c" clamp style brake riveter.  Worked like a charm.

I used a little countersink bit, clamped the pads in place with a bunch of small c clamps and then started riveting.  The squeezer type riveters are probably a lot faster, but they are a little harder to keep aligned as you squeeze.

Definitely excited to see how much of a difference these new bands make.  I am going to replace the bands on the M29 as well.  I also need to clean up the drums a little.  I am planning on chucking them on my wood lathe and then using an angle grinder to get rid of the grooves.  I will try and get pictures.

[Patrick Tipton]

Got the brake drums cleaned up today. 

I ended up doing the work on my wood lathe....turned a chuck and just used a compression fit.  The drum was not running perfectly true, but these are low rpm devices, so I think we are close enough.  I used my angle grinder with 60 grit sanding discs, then went up to 100 and then a 3M pad to polish.  I did run a file across it before polishing to check flatness and progress...worked just fine.  I could probably polish it a little more, but I think we are in good shape. 

I am going to be pulling the final drive on the M29 next week to replace the brake linings and am going to repeat this process...will report back on results!

I will also post some assembly pictures soon.  There is definitely a camming action with the brake bands when you set it up correctly - I am expecting fingertip steering with this one, but we shall see.

[OZM29C]

@Patrick Tipton Like a bought one Patrick. Well done 👍 In my case I followed the brake band set up instructions in the manual to a tee. Particularly the cam set up although I must admit that I made a small error of judgement in the initial set up but that was easily sorted. The only other bit of advice that I could offer is to ensure that you do indeed use the correct grade of oil in the final drive. In my case I used a Castrol product but I am sure that there are plenty of alternatives available.

CAstrol Classic XL30.pdf